i wasn’t talking specifically about EF, although it is a good example. With ASP.NET it is different, but then again, that team has been open to feedback from the ALT.NET crowd very early in the development cycle. Let’s hope it won’t be the last time

As for the “us vs them”, that’s what you get when you have opposing viewpoints. It doesn’t mean you have to go to war though.

That being said, when you say “Microsoft releases another library”, I assume you mean EF. There was alot of reason for bitching since, unless I’m grossly mistaken, the points had already extensively been discussed with the team behind EF. That other library, ASP.NET MVC, isn’t receiving this amount of bitching. I wonder why.

and again, one-liners don’t count… and as mentioned before in these comments, if the same questions are being asked over and over again, they are definitely not being answered. At the same time, you hear a lot of ALT.NET’ers bitch and complain because the other side still fails to see the point and they still don’t understand the issues

so really, who’s fault is that? Theirs for not doing the necessary research? Or ours?

Why does it have to be so ‘us vs them’ in the first place?

Starting a movement for people with the same mindset is great… but don’t bitch when people outside of that movement or community fail to see the point if you do a half-assed job of making clear exactly what the point is. All it takes is for Microsoft to release another library that isn’t up to ‘our’ standards, and then the bitchfest starts all over again. So yea, i’d say there is most definitely a problem with the ALT.NET community

How anyone can miss that at this point is beyond me

It’s funny to hear people talk about closed-mindedness when the raison d’être for ALT.NET was the fact that .NET developers were too closed-minded about non-Microsoft solutions. Yes, perhaps some of us dismiss things because of principles and values, but heck, aren’t those pretty good reasons to dismiss things? Perhaps people don’t back up all their claims, but I don’t recall signing up for a tutoring session. I’m willing to point people in the right direction but if they cannot do the necessary research themselves, I can’t get myself to care.

The worst thing about these blog posts is that they (imho) radiate a sense of superiority. The poster has been hanging out with ALT.NET folks for a while, and suddently “he gets it”. He “knows” what the big ALT.NET problem is. Sorry, but I wasn’t even aware we had a problem. (Agreed, this last part is not specifically geared towards you. But for the one time that I decide to answer to these posts, better include it.)

TL;DR: I disagree respectfully

Here’s the thing I should probably make explicit some time: I tend to design for testability as well, I just do it for reasons that have nothing to do with testability. Well-encapsulated code and loose coupling have benefits in their own rights. Benefits that get obscured and/or ignored because we’re so hung up on “testability”.

Actually, it was all those responses to your Typemock post that got me thinking about how much the ALT.NET community really needs to change in the first place. I personally prefer to design for testability as well as the other important -ilities, but your post made some good points. And the reactions you got where completely uncalled for and unfortunately, very typical for some of the ‘community leaders’. But even though they are considered ‘leaders’, i don’t think they speak for the entire community in situations like that. At least, i’d hope not.

And here’s my response to those who claim that they keep answering the same 20 questions: if you were actually answering them, they wouldn’t keep returning. I get the sense that some in the community want to move on and consider certain processes and concepts as settled before they’ve actually settled them–at least in a way that can be transfered to someone who doesn’t already believe. You may be personally convinced, but since the logic eventually comes down to “I tried it and liked it” you need to understand when that isn’t convincing to skeptics.

And here’s what I’ve been waiting for: an honest and thorough examination of where the beloved techniques and patterns break. Saying that something delivers value can be interesting. Saying that something gives value in situations a, b, and c but tends to break down in situation d gives contextual information that is invaluable when it comes to deciding if something is applicable in your own situation. Because here’s an unvarnished and universal truth: everything breaks somewhere. I have much more confidence in a pattern or process when those edges have been explored, mapped out, and made public than when all I hear about are the amazing benefits of .

yup, that’s what it _should_ be about

but i wouldn’t necessarily agree that the ALT.NET community only uses open source technologies… if closed source solutions are the best, then those are the ones that are recommended (resharper, dottrace, etc…)

but yeah, open source usage is pretty prevalent in the ALT.NET community, which isn’t a problem as long as the chosen solutions really are the best ones

I think the community members are getting tired of answering the same 20 questions over and over again, and this is why you get the one line answers like; “go check RhinoCommons” or “read Evans”.

If the group is going to change for the better they need a new way to communicate their collective ideas to existing and new members. Forums are a great way to communicate with fellow developers but not a good way to disseminate knowledge to the uninitiated.

Now all you need is a forum with its communication and notification features and a wiki like system like knol (http://knol.google.com). If the Alt.Net forum had a built in wiki, then we could get the group past the startup questions and on to other practices that might be able to tolerate some other points of view.

Just my opinionated opinion
Adam j Wolf

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein